Topics

Michelin mystery

Richard Oliver
 

The following may seem tangential to the OS, but it has to do with map compilation from other than OS sources!

It concerns Michelin map 930, of Great Britain, edition of 1962, nominally 1:887,040. The only roads indicated in the legend are 'Made-up roads with tarred, concrete, asphalt or other modern hard surfacing', and coloured red or yellow. However - and not explained in the legend - some A and B roads in northern and western Scotland are shown with dashed blue lines, including the middle third of the A830 from Fort William to Mallaig, which I know from personal experience was, in mid-1961, not yet tarred, etc, and presumably this applies to the other roads treated thus in Scotland. This information for A and B roads was not available from contemporary OS sources!

Question is: does anyone know of a source for this information which would have saved Michelin the trouble of on-the-spot investigation?

(This is not the only oddity on this map, but it will do for this posting!)

Richard Oliver

Jeremy Harrison
 

The two obvious sources of such information would be the local highway authorities, and the motoring organisations (AA and RAC) who (I understand) patrolled them, at least to some extent. And the AA published a series of road books, with Bartholomew's maps. That for Scotland (my edition is 1953) has, in the legend, blue dashed roads as "Roads requiring special care owing to restricted width and/or rough surface. Passing places usually available" - this symbology only appears to be used in the Highlands and Islands (there is warning in the text about roads in such areas - whether this was a deliberate choice, or a reflection on roads elsewhere being better, I don't know), and for classified (numbered) roads which would have been coloured otherwise - there are uncoloured local roads off them, which I wouldn't have expected to be any better. AA Road books I have for England & Wales (1950) and Ireland (1963) don't have the same indication.

Jeremy

 

On Monday, 7 October 2019, 15:28:06 BST, Richard Oliver <flookcarto@...> wrote:


The following may seem tangential to the OS, but it has to do with map compilation from other than OS sources!

It concerns Michelin map 930, of Great Britain, edition of 1962, nominally 1:887,040. The only roads indicated in the legend are 'Made-up roads with tarred, concrete, asphalt or other modern hard surfacing', and coloured red or yellow. However - and not explained in the legend - some A and B roads in northern and western Scotland are shown with dashed blue lines, including the middle third of the A830 from Fort William to Mallaig, which I know from personal experience was, in mid-1961, not yet tarred, etc, and presumably this applies to the other roads treated thus in Scotland. This information for A and B roads was not available from contemporary OS sources!

Question is: does anyone know of a source for this information which would have saved Michelin the trouble of on-the-spot investigation?

(This is not the only oddity on this map, but it will do for this posting!)

Richard Oliver

Richard Oliver
 

Thank you for this: I have the 1953 AA Road Book for Scotland, and whilst Itinerary 209 for the Mallaig Road makes no reference to the surface, the Barts maps at the back do indeed show all but the eastern section as narrow/rough. The maps are superficially the same as those in the regular 5-mile road atlas, but my 9th ed (1952) has 'Roads requiring care', without further explanation - and the Mallaig road is not included amongst those! The network of 'narrow/rough' roads in the 1953 Road Book is more extensive than the 'unexplained' ones on the 1962 Michelin map, but that perhaps reflects the progress of road tarring in the 1950s - and indeed which was in progress on the Mallaig road in 1961.

Richard Oliver


On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 16:35, Jeremy Harrison via Groups.Io <jeremygharrison=yahoo.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
The two obvious sources of such information would be the local highway authorities, and the motoring organisations (AA and RAC) who (I understand) patrolled them, at least to some extent. And the AA published a series of road books, with Bartholomew's maps. That for Scotland (my edition is 1953) has, in the legend, blue dashed roads as "Roads requiring special care owing to restricted width and/or rough surface. Passing places usually available" - this symbology only appears to be used in the Highlands and Islands (there is warning in the text about roads in such areas - whether this was a deliberate choice, or a reflection on roads elsewhere being better, I don't know), and for classified (numbered) roads which would have been coloured otherwise - there are uncoloured local roads off them, which I wouldn't have expected to be any better. AA Road books I have for England & Wales (1950) and Ireland (1963) don't have the same indication.

Jeremy

 

On Monday, 7 October 2019, 15:28:06 BST, Richard Oliver <flookcarto@...> wrote:


The following may seem tangential to the OS, but it has to do with map compilation from other than OS sources!

It concerns Michelin map 930, of Great Britain, edition of 1962, nominally 1:887,040. The only roads indicated in the legend are 'Made-up roads with tarred, concrete, asphalt or other modern hard surfacing', and coloured red or yellow. However - and not explained in the legend - some A and B roads in northern and western Scotland are shown with dashed blue lines, including the middle third of the A830 from Fort William to Mallaig, which I know from personal experience was, in mid-1961, not yet tarred, etc, and presumably this applies to the other roads treated thus in Scotland. This information for A and B roads was not available from contemporary OS sources!

Question is: does anyone know of a source for this information which would have saved Michelin the trouble of on-the-spot investigation?

(This is not the only oddity on this map, but it will do for this posting!)

Richard Oliver

Tony Jervis
 

It looks like the Michelin question has been answered but it prompted me to look at a few of my own One-inch (Seventh Series) maps of the area.  The O.S. used alternate red and white infilling for “Narrow Class A roads with passing places” (shown separately above the boxed characteristics symbols and later amended to “Narrow Trunk or Main Road with passing places”).  On Sheet 35 (Loch Arkaig, A/ “Major roads revised 1961” issue), the A830(T) is shown as such from Annat, at the east end of Loch Eil a short distance outside the built-up area surrounding Fort William, for some 17km to Glenfinnan, solid red for about 15km to Lochailort, “narrow” for about 2km continuing on to Sheet 35 (South Skye & Arisaig, same dates), solid for just over a kilometre, narrow again for 11km to just beyond Arisaig Station, solid red for 1km, then narrow for the remaining 12km or so into Mallaig.  (The 1km bit runs almost exactly from grid line to grid line, suggesting that the local field surveyor was asked to update just square NM 6587!)  The alternating “wide” and “narrow” sections suggest that, though there may have been a long-term plan to improve the whole road, the worst sections were being treated first.  Since then, of course, the whole road has been much improved, with several sections of abandoned old road still visible zig-zagging round headlands etc.  There is a national society, Railway Ramblers, whose object is to trace abandoned railways on the ground (now easier in Scotland with its “Right to Roam”); perhaps should there be a similar society to walk old pensioned-off roads, though “Dead-Road Walkers” might be an unfortunate title now that cars can legally park on footways and certain cycleways.

My first visit to the area (by rail) was in 1962 and I can remember seeing road works taking place where road and railway are close together.  At the time, the start of the “Beeching era” of railway rationalisation, I was told that this wasn’t merely a tarring of the surface but was part of a general improvement of the road so that convoys of lorries could replace the daily fish train. 

Tony Jervis

On 07/10/2019 18:06, Richard Oliver wrote:
Thank you for this: I have the 1953 AA Road Book for Scotland, and whilst Itinerary 209 for the Mallaig Road makes no reference to the surface, the Barts maps at the back do indeed show all but the eastern section as narrow/rough. The maps are superficially the same as those in the regular 5-mile road atlas, but my 9th ed (1952) has 'Roads requiring care', without further explanation - and the Mallaig road is not included amongst those! The network of 'narrow/rough' roads in the 1953 Road Book is more extensive than the 'unexplained' ones on the 1962 Michelin map, but that perhaps reflects the progress of road tarring in the 1950s - and indeed which was in progress on the Mallaig road in 1961.

Richard Oliver

On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 16:35, Jeremy Harrison via Groups.Io <jeremygharrison=yahoo.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
The two obvious sources of such information would be the local highway authorities, and the motoring organisations (AA and RAC) who (I understand) patrolled them, at least to some extent. And the AA published a series of road books, with Bartholomew's maps. That for Scotland (my edition is 1953) has, in the legend, blue dashed roads as "Roads requiring special care owing to restricted width and/or rough surface. Passing places usually available" - this symbology only appears to be used in the Highlands and Islands (there is warning in the text about roads in such areas - whether this was a deliberate choice, or a reflection on roads elsewhere being better, I don't know), and for classified (numbered) roads which would have been coloured otherwise - there are uncoloured local roads off them, which I wouldn't have expected to be any better. AA Road books I have for England & Wales (1950) and Ireland (1963) don't have the same indication.

Jeremy

 

On Monday, 7 October 2019, 15:28:06 BST, Richard Oliver <flookcarto@...> wrote:


The following may seem tangential to the OS, but it has to do with map compilation from other than OS sources!

It concerns Michelin map 930, of Great Britain, edition of 1962, nominally 1:887,040. The only roads indicated in the legend are 'Made-up roads with tarred, concrete, asphalt or other modern hard surfacing', and coloured red or yellow. However - and not explained in the legend - some A and B roads in northern and western Scotland are shown with dashed blue lines, including the middle third of the A830 from Fort William to Mallaig, which I know from personal experience was, in mid-1961, not yet tarred, etc, and presumably this applies to the other roads treated thus in Scotland. This information for A and B roads was not available from contemporary OS sources!

Question is: does anyone know of a source for this information which would have saved Michelin the trouble of on-the-spot investigation?

(This is not the only oddity on this map, but it will do for this posting!)

Richard Oliver

Virus-free. www.avg.com

?
 

I remember a long unmetalled stretch west of Corpach in 1956.*. The top surface was a bright white compacted sand, glaring in the sun of that summer, the white the white of the sands at Morar.  IIRC the tarmac into Mallaig began shortly before the LCs at Morar, and the manual lever Shell petrol pump and village shop at Arisaig stood beside unmetalled road.  My 35 A/ major roads revised 1961 reprinted with minor changes 1961 has the ‘Class A roads ... passing places’ line entered above (outside) the roads key box, while my 34 A fully revised 1954-55 does not show interrupted red A-road fill either on the map or in the key.  Inference that early 7ths are not a good guide to unnmetalled A roads?
I hadn’t noticed before that the cover of 34 A retains the George VI Imperial crown above the Scottish lion, while 35 A/ is changed to the Elizabeth II St Edward crown.  Both covers long-form red and cream.
(* I know it was 1956 because I remember hearing on the car radio Jim Laker taking 19 for 90 in the Old Trafford Test.)
Andrew Cook CCS #5

.

On 7 Oct 2019, at 20:33, Tony Jervis via Groups.Io <tony.jervis@...> wrote:

It looks like the Michelin question has been answered but it prompted me to look at a few of my own One-inch (Seventh Series) maps of the area.  The O.S. used alternate red and white infilling for “Narrow Class A roads with passing places” (shown separately above the boxed characteristics symbols and later amended to “Narrow Trunk or Main Road with passing places”).  On Sheet 35 (Loch Arkaig, A/ “Major roads revised 1961” issue), the A830(T) is shown as such from Annat, at the east end of Loch Eil a short distance outside the built-up area surrounding Fort William, for some 17km to Glenfinnan, solid red for about 15km to Lochailort, “narrow” for about 2km continuing on to Sheet 35 (South Skye & Arisaig, same dates), solid for just over a kilometre, narrow again for 11km to just beyond Arisaig Station, solid red for 1km, then narrow for the remaining 12km or so into Mallaig.  (The 1km bit runs almost exactly from grid line to grid line, suggesting that the local field surveyor was asked to update just square NM 6587!)  The alternating “wide” and “narrow” sections suggest that, though there may have been a long-term plan to improve the whole road, the worst sections were being treated first.  Since then, of course, the whole road has been much improved, with several sections of abandoned old road still visible zig-zagging round headlands etc.  There is a national society, Railway Ramblers, whose object is to trace abandoned railways on the ground (now easier in Scotland with its “Right to Roam”); perhaps should there be a similar society to walk old pensioned-off roads, though “Dead-Road Walkers” might be an unfortunate title now that cars can legally park on footways and certain cycleways.

My first visit to the area (by rail) was in 1962 and I can remember seeing road works taking place where road and railway are close together.  At the time, the start of the “Beeching era” of railway rationalisation, I was told that this wasn’t merely a tarring of the surface but was part of a general improvement of the road so that convoys of lorries could replace the daily fish train. 

Tony Jervis

On 07/10/2019 18:06, Richard Oliver wrote:
Thank you for this: I have the 1953 AA Road Book for Scotland, and whilst Itinerary 209 for the Mallaig Road makes no reference to the surface, the Barts maps at the back do indeed show all but the eastern section as narrow/rough. The maps are superficially the same as those in the regular 5-mile road atlas, but my 9th ed (1952) has 'Roads requiring care', without further explanation - and the Mallaig road is not included amongst those! The network of 'narrow/rough' roads in the 1953 Road Book is more extensive than the 'unexplained' ones on the 1962 Michelin map, but that perhaps reflects the progress of road tarring in the 1950s - and indeed which was in progress on the Mallaig road in 1961.

Richard Oliver

On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 16:35, Jeremy Harrison via Groups.Io <jeremygharrison=yahoo.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
The two obvious sources of such information would be the local highway authorities, and the motoring organisations (AA and RAC) who (I understand) patrolled them, at least to some extent. And the AA published a series of road books, with Bartholomew's maps. That for Scotland (my edition is 1953) has, in the legend, blue dashed roads as "Roads requiring special care owing to restricted width and/or rough surface. Passing places usually available" - this symbology only appears to be used in the Highlands and Islands (there is warning in the text about roads in such areas - whether this was a deliberate choice, or a reflection on roads elsewhere being better, I don't know), and for classified (numbered) roads which would have been coloured otherwise - there are uncoloured local roads off them, which I wouldn't have expected to be any better. AA Road books I have for England & Wales (1950) and Ireland (1963) don't have the same indication.

Jeremy

 

On Monday, 7 October 2019, 15:28:06 BST, Richard Oliver <flookcarto@...> wrote:


The following may seem tangential to the OS, but it has to do with map compilation from other than OS sources!

It concerns Michelin map 930, of Great Britain, edition of 1962, nominally 1:887,040. The only roads indicated in the legend are 'Made-up roads with tarred, concrete, asphalt or other modern hard surfacing', and coloured red or yellow. However - and not explained in the legend - some A and B roads in northern and western Scotland are shown with dashed blue lines, including the middle third of the A830 from Fort William to Mallaig, which I know from personal experience was, in mid-1961, not yet tarred, etc, and presumably this applies to the other roads treated thus in Scotland. This information for A and B roads was not available from contemporary OS sources!

Question is: does anyone know of a source for this information which would have saved Michelin the trouble of on-the-spot investigation?

(This is not the only oddity on this map, but it will do for this posting!)

Richard Oliver

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Steven @ SABRE Maps
 

Tony talks of
There is a national society, Railway Ramblers, whose object is to trace abandoned railways on the ground (now easier in Scotland with its “Right to Roam”); perhaps should there be a similar society to walk old pensioned-off roads, though “Dead-Road Walkers” might be an unfortunate title now that cars can legally park on footways and certain cycleways.
Whilst not being specifically about walking old roads, SABRE (more familiar in these circles for its online map repository) is probably the most likely place to start to get like-minded people together to achieve this as visits to abandoned infrastructure have been organised previously.

Richard Oliver
 

Thank you for this. The 'narrow road' symbol seems to have been introduced in 1960 or 1961: there must be some background in OS files in class OS1 at The National Archives. Anyway, I see from the 1970 and 1967 printings of sheets 34 and 35 that no further upgrading of A830 to Mallaig is recorded, but that the new-build A861 in both sheets is recorded!

Richard Oliver


On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 20:33, Tony Jervis via Groups.Io <tony.jervis=talktalk.net@groups.io> wrote:

It looks like the Michelin question has been answered but it prompted me to look at a few of my own One-inch (Seventh Series) maps of the area.  The O.S. used alternate red and white infilling for “Narrow Class A roads with passing places” (shown separately above the boxed characteristics symbols and later amended to “Narrow Trunk or Main Road with passing places”).  On Sheet 35 (Loch Arkaig, A/ “Major roads revised 1961” issue), the A830(T) is shown as such from Annat, at the east end of Loch Eil a short distance outside the built-up area surrounding Fort William, for some 17km to Glenfinnan, solid red for about 15km to Lochailort, “narrow” for about 2km continuing on to Sheet 35 (South Skye & Arisaig, same dates), solid for just over a kilometre, narrow again for 11km to just beyond Arisaig Station, solid red for 1km, then narrow for the remaining 12km or so into Mallaig.  (The 1km bit runs almost exactly from grid line to grid line, suggesting that the local field surveyor was asked to update just square NM 6587!)  The alternating “wide” and “narrow” sections suggest that, though there may have been a long-term plan to improve the whole road, the worst sections were being treated first.  Since then, of course, the whole road has been much improved, with several sections of abandoned old road still visible zig-zagging round headlands etc.  There is a national society, Railway Ramblers, whose object is to trace abandoned railways on the ground (now easier in Scotland with its “Right to Roam”); perhaps should there be a similar society to walk old pensioned-off roads, though “Dead-Road Walkers” might be an unfortunate title now that cars can legally park on footways and certain cycleways.

My first visit to the area (by rail) was in 1962 and I can remember seeing road works taking place where road and railway are close together.  At the time, the start of the “Beeching era” of railway rationalisation, I was told that this wasn’t merely a tarring of the surface but was part of a general improvement of the road so that convoys of lorries could replace the daily fish train. 

Tony Jervis

On 07/10/2019 18:06, Richard Oliver wrote:
Thank you for this: I have the 1953 AA Road Book for Scotland, and whilst Itinerary 209 for the Mallaig Road makes no reference to the surface, the Barts maps at the back do indeed show all but the eastern section as narrow/rough. The maps are superficially the same as those in the regular 5-mile road atlas, but my 9th ed (1952) has 'Roads requiring care', without further explanation - and the Mallaig road is not included amongst those! The network of 'narrow/rough' roads in the 1953 Road Book is more extensive than the 'unexplained' ones on the 1962 Michelin map, but that perhaps reflects the progress of road tarring in the 1950s - and indeed which was in progress on the Mallaig road in 1961.

Richard Oliver

On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 16:35, Jeremy Harrison via Groups.Io <jeremygharrison=yahoo.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
The two obvious sources of such information would be the local highway authorities, and the motoring organisations (AA and RAC) who (I understand) patrolled them, at least to some extent. And the AA published a series of road books, with Bartholomew's maps. That for Scotland (my edition is 1953) has, in the legend, blue dashed roads as "Roads requiring special care owing to restricted width and/or rough surface. Passing places usually available" - this symbology only appears to be used in the Highlands and Islands (there is warning in the text about roads in such areas - whether this was a deliberate choice, or a reflection on roads elsewhere being better, I don't know), and for classified (numbered) roads which would have been coloured otherwise - there are uncoloured local roads off them, which I wouldn't have expected to be any better. AA Road books I have for England & Wales (1950) and Ireland (1963) don't have the same indication.

Jeremy

 

On Monday, 7 October 2019, 15:28:06 BST, Richard Oliver <flookcarto@...> wrote:


The following may seem tangential to the OS, but it has to do with map compilation from other than OS sources!

It concerns Michelin map 930, of Great Britain, edition of 1962, nominally 1:887,040. The only roads indicated in the legend are 'Made-up roads with tarred, concrete, asphalt or other modern hard surfacing', and coloured red or yellow. However - and not explained in the legend - some A and B roads in northern and western Scotland are shown with dashed blue lines, including the middle third of the A830 from Fort William to Mallaig, which I know from personal experience was, in mid-1961, not yet tarred, etc, and presumably this applies to the other roads treated thus in Scotland. This information for A and B roads was not available from contemporary OS sources!

Question is: does anyone know of a source for this information which would have saved Michelin the trouble of on-the-spot investigation?

(This is not the only oddity on this map, but it will do for this posting!)

Richard Oliver

Virus-free. www.avg.com

John F
 

Tony Jervis mentions, en passant, that cars are now allowed to legally park on footpaths. Does this apply to pavements outside residential properties, or is "footpaths" a specific term for country lanes?
John Fowler